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As an anti-vaxxer, what’s your opinion on the argument that not vaccinating your child can harm other children?

Frank Bartlo, studied Health

Answered Wed

I can’t answer for anti-vaxxers, because I’m somewhere in the middle, for personal choice in the matter, but as such may be able give a better, more even-handed answer.

My short answer is that yes, it can put other children at greater risk, but I’m unconvinced that’s not at a greater (probably far greater, these days) risk to the child who is being vaccinated, at least for multiple vaccines administered at one time, and for certain diseases, such as chicken pox. Which is why I’m pro-choice.

I’ve read the attached article, and however tragic any kid’s death is, I gotta wonder why so much attention to every single isolated death from a disease while literally hundreds of deaths every year, mostly young children, due to vaccine injury (over 400 reported in the US in 2016 alone) are swept under the rug, and even denied, by advocates of mandatory vaccination?

The attention seems way, way out of proportion to the relative scale of the problems. Anti-vax sentiment hasn’t just come out of thin air.

And even the CDC has expressed concerns that vaccine injuries may be under-reported by a factor of 10 to 100. That would correspond to somewhere between 4,000 and 40,000 vaccine injury deaths per year in the US.

The ER nurse whose account of the under-reporting of vaccine injuries everywhere he’s worked is linked below suspects they could be under-reported by an even greater factor, being the only one of a staff of about 500 who he’s ever known to report them. So if there indeed are about 500 times as many vaccine injuries as reported, as per this ER nurse’s experience, we could be looking at something on the order of 200,000 deaths due to vaccine injuries in the US per year.

ER Nurse Shares His Experiences With Vaccine Reactions

Since people don’t always read links, below are some excerpts of his account that highlight how shockingly under-reported and covered up vaccine injury is in hospitals, and why government agencies (staffed from top to bottom, especially at the top with people from the pharmaceutical industry) can claim vaccine injuries are so “rare”:

“As an E.R. nurse, I have seen the cover up. Where do you think kids go when they have a vaccine reaction?

They go to the E.R. They come to me.

I cannot even begin to guess how many times over the years I have seen vaccine reactions come through my E.R. Without any exaggeration, it has to be counted in hundreds.

Sometimes it seemed like it was one or two cases in a single shift, every shift, for weeks. Then I would get a lull, and I wouldn’t catch one for a week or two, then I’d catch another case per night for a couple weeks. This was common.

Once, I was training a nursing student, about to graduate, on their E.R. experience rotation in nursing school. This student and I floated up to triage to cover the triage nurse for a break. I was quizzing them on what to ask and look for as a triage nurse on pediatric kids that came through. I made a point about asking about immunizations right out the gates. The student was puzzled, and asked why, and I told the student because we see vaccine reactions every day and it’s their job to catch it, alert the doctor and the parents, and report it to VAERS [Vaccine Adverse Effects Reporting System: ].

Some higher power apparently smiled on my attempt to open the eyes of another nurse I guess, because not even ten minutes later, a woman brought her child up to the counter. Sudden onset super high fever and lethargy. I asked if the child was up to date on vaccination.

The mother replied he had them just a few hours ago.

I glanced at the student, who looked shocked and looked back at me in disbelief. I nodded, told them to remember this, and then took the mom and her child to finish the triage in back. When I was done I came back and sat down with the student, and asked what he learned that night so far.

The first response: "What I was told about vaccines wasn’t true".

Another couple excerpts:

“But here’s the more disturbing part.

For all the cases I’ve seen, I have NEVER seen any medical provider report them to VAERS. I have filed VAERS reports. But I am the ONLY nurse I have EVER met that files VAERS reports.

I also have NEVER met a doctor that filed a VAERS report.

Mind you, I have served in multiple hospitals across multiple states, alongside probably well over a hundred doctors and probably 300-400+ nurses.

I’ve worked in big hospitals (San Francisco Bay Area Metro 40 bed ER, Las Vegas NV Metro 44 bed ER) and small hospitals (Rural access 2 bed ER, remote community 4 bed ER) and everything in between.

When I say NEVER, I mean NEVER.”

“I have challenged doctors who refused to put in the chart that the child was vaccinated 4 hours ago and was in perfect health, and now suddenly they are non-responsive, seizing, febrile at 105, and that labs, LP, and imaging confirms cerebral edema/encephalitis.

I reminded the doctor as they are writing their report that the child was vaccinated mere hours before. And at the end, there is total omission of this fact, and the physician pass-off notes state encephalitis of unknown origin.

I ask the doctor if they will file a VAERS report, and they argue that this has nothing to do with it, its purely coincidental, and nothing should be filed, they are safe and effective.”

(End of excerpts. I sincerely hope his trainees are filing reports to VAERS)

So, while it stands to reason there is an increased risk of the spread of disease due to vaccination, where is the balance between individual risk and the risk to others?

There are still very few instances of diseases such as measles in developed nations, even among unvaccinated groups. We have immune systems that protect us from disease, and a vast, vast majority of well fed people who are living under clean conditions fully recover.

And seemingly strangely, the results of the following survey of medical records of 405 vaccinated and 261 unvaccinated kids strongly suggest that unvaccinated kids are sick less often than vaccinated kids, including a 5 times lesser chance of pneumonia, so vaccinating may be trading protection against some diseases for susceptibility to others:

Pilot comparative study on the health of vaccinated and unvaccinated 6- to 12- year old U.S. children

The vaccinated children had 20% higher (2.3 times) the rate of sick visits to their doctor within the past year (36% to 16%) and a 5 times higher rate (5% greater chance) of pneumonia (6.4% to 1.2%) than the unvaccinated children. But the sick visits could also have been due to a greater inclination to treat illness at home, so I’d take that one with a big pinch of salt.

The vaccinated children were also found to have a 20% (about 1 in 5, 45.2% to 24.9%) greater chance of having been diagnosed with chronic health issues than the unvaccinated children, 4.7 times the rates of autism and learning disabilities (4.7% to 1.0% for each), and over 3 times the rates of neuro-developmental disorders (10.1 % to 3.1%) and allergies (22.6% to 6.9%) as the unvaccinated kids. Which goes back to the matter of individual rights.

Furthermore, I’m not at all convinced deadly epidemics are coming back in any big way if people choose not to vaccinate. In fact, I think it far more likely outbreaks will continue to be small-scale, isolated, and very rare, and almost everyone stricken will continue to fully recover.

And if an outbreak occurs and starts to spread, we have the vaccines on hand.

Here’s just some of the evidence upon which this is based. Note the decline of diseases prior to vaccination programs such as this graph or mortality rates due to various diseases in England and Wales from 1838 to 1978, which could be viewed more clearly by clicking on it to magnify it:

Measles had already gone down by 99.6% from its Dickensian highs in England and Wales by the time the vaccine came into use, with a death rate of much less than 1 per 100,000 per year, and was still declining. Scarlet fever, which had killed people at a much higher rate in the days of filth and famine, has been virtually eradicated with no vaccination program at all. The death rates due to all diseases have trended about the same, regardless of when or even if vaccination programs began.

So, based on the evidence, I’m not sure whether the disease or the cure is worse. And it stands to reason the balance could vary greatly from disease to disease.

When I was a kid, we had less vaccines (about 1/3 as heavy a schedule), kids were vaccinated later in life, there were no major epidemics, and there seemed to be a lot less chronically ill and mentally impaired kids, and no “anti-vax” movement, to speak of.

So maybe the best approach is indeed somewhere in between?

Nonetheless, with so many injuries and even disabilities and deaths being caused by vaccines, I’m for informed choice, letting people do as they please, and having the results sort things out organically, because we really don’t know for certain what will happen if more people choose not to vaccinate, or to only vaccinate for certain diseases.


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